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Grace
Sitemap Grace Holloway --- --- --- --- --- Reason to kill Grace Holloway : * Anyone else figure that it was Grace Holloway that fingered Delta and led Sofia Lamb to him so that she could force Delta to kill himself ?? * And for all her empathic talk about 'Baby Eleanor' and what Delta did to her, while now Grace has sided with Sofia Lamb -- Who is out kidnapping (many) dozens of other small children (to turn them into the Little Sister Ghouls) and convincing members of 'The Family' to kill themselves as fodder for Sofia's mad delusion (( '' But NOOOOOOOOOOOOO, *of course* Grace knows NOTHING of that ... '' )) * Unfortunately you NEVER get to make a 'moral choice' to kill/not-kill the real Villain of the Game (Sofia Lamb), just a few of her murderous minions are ever 'in reach'. I don't know why I didn't realize the above earlier. Maybe it was all the 'talk' that Grace did that is supposed to invoke your compassion, and the talk of her boss Sofia kidnapping alot more children (heard from Tenenbaum) is so meager/limited in the game, or just the rest of the events of game being a distraction (particularly the first time playthru when everything is new/unknown and dark and scary). Sofia Lamb's death is pretty indirect (in the end-case ending where it happens), and I doubt many Players could (without previously seeing it) predict/tell/expect which way the endings might actually go/happen. Hard to miss Grace ranting about what terrible thing had happened to "little 'baby' Eleanor", which *of course* (sarcasm) IS so COMPLETELY different than what happened to all those other little children. New Little Sisters somehow showing up (and BTW Sofia Lamb (Grace's boss) does happen to run the whole place) - Its not too hard to guess who caused so much evil to happen (Grace only had 8 years to maybe figure that out ...). Either Grace didn't care to know, OR it did not matter to her. Its NOT easy to miss 'The Family' at those little altars, with Splicers(or people at least) offered up to the Little Sister vents. Hard for Grace Holloway to miss THAT going on -- AND That was going on for quite a while before Delta showed up (BS2 times), and it was made pretty obvious by Father Wales' rants (which Grace could NOT have missed hearing). Grace must have a different understanding of what is happening when lots of susceptible people get 'talked into suicide'. Oh, and that bit about 'the Rapture Family' killing 'Unbelievers' (We see murdered people tacked up on walls 'as a warning') -- YET ANOTHER thing Grace could hardly fail to know about. ""Nonbelievers are not welcome here anymore"" written under murdered people on display ... Mere Ignorance ?? No, sorry - Not less than Willful Ignorance. When you side with Hitler and do his murderous bidding, you don't really have much excuse ... Hard to ignore those very definitely murdered people nailed to the walls (with the Bibles next to them) and labeled as 'Unbelievers', when Lamb's old message was 'All are Welcome'. ...... And Grace calls Delta a "Monster" ... With all the venom that Grace spewed at Delta, you might think she would have a general aversion to 'stealing children', and turning them into the little ghouls like what had happened to Eleanor. The horrors perpetrated for 'Lambs Utopia' did not seem to matter when it was Eleanor at stake. If Grace really cared about Eleanor, then shouldn't she have tried to deny the Key to the "Metal Monster" by flushed it down the nearest convenience or garbage chute (a simple thing to do to try to save Eleanor from the "Monster", No ??) Or did she just want to keep the Power she had (the Key), and got cornered at the last minute?? - Perhaps if she simply handed it over, she might then "save herself" ?? Mere Self-Preservation ? Many of the 'people killed' in Looney Lambville were NOT threatening Rapture or The Family. Instead, they were "martyrs" who were talked into giving their lives (suicide ?) to feed the Little Sisters their ADAM, so they could be joined into that 'First Utopian' Sofia kept going on about (listen to Wales' rants). That of course doesn't include all those murdered because they suddenly were NOT the 'right' religion (Lamb's/Wales brand) or had resisted Sofia Lamb's insanity. --- After you 'saved' (didn't kill) Grace, the Splicers in Paupers Drop continued to attack you. I guess there was no announcement : "People, Big Daddy is NOW Our Friend, so give him flowers and wave as he goes on his way ..." from Grace. 'Changed' Grace did not seem to do much to stop the murderous mayhem. Perhaps she did not have as much control as she thought, and only mouthed Sofia Lamb's words and directives (and the Splicers all followed orders 'or else'). Grace now supposedly had some "questions" for Sofia, but what do you think the odds of Grace soon "Joining with the Utopian" or "Feeding the Fishes" now would be ??? --- Sorry, 'Ignorance' (especially willful ignorance) is no defense, especially from someone who is supposed to be a Leader. Grace was in a good position to know what was going on (and apparently 'bought into' Lamb's little Nazi state) and went along with it (killing unbelievers, talking people into martyring themselves, the mad/crazy delusional rantings, the new Little Sisters, and the rest of it). She could hardly 'not know' all of that was going on, despite whatever 'lies' she was told. Grace's motives sound hypocritical and selfish when you put it all together. --- It might have been interesting : that if you let Grace live, she goes on (as you try to leave the Sinclair Deluxe) to order all her Splicer followers (like 30 of them ...) to Zerg Rush you and kill you (if you don't run like heck for the AE train). That teaches you that making 'moral choices' about people you really don't understand can lead to your ruin (and failure to save dearest Eleanor). It was rather convenient for Grace to suddenly change her stripes after all her years of obsession, and seeing what Sofia Lamb had done (and Grace not just 'standing by', but helping in the subjugation and murder). --- --- --- MORE Reasons in the Game to Kill Grace (Delta has a Mission) : You witness : * New Little Sisters roaming Rapture (including in Grace's area - Yet she raves about 'poor Eleanor' going thru that nightmare existence). * "Unbelievers" are crucified on walls and others lie left right and center at Graces feet. * The Rapture Family members being convinced to kill themselves and offering themselves up to 'The Lamb' (Grace is oblivious to Sofia's crazy murderous delusion ? ) * All that stuff Wales constantly Ranted (pseudo religious gobbledeeguck about her 'Little Eleanor'). SO in the end, she is "Unarmed" ??? - But after hordes of dangerous minions she had already previously sent to kill you ... * How could you possibly trust her? YOUR MISSION is to get to Eleanor, and if YOU were playing for keeps (like assuming in Hard Mode if you died "Thats It, you Failed, period.") you would NOT want to risk having any more of Grace's Nasties (or worse) after you. * There is NO reason why Grace should not continue to seek your destruction AFTER you let her live. * You simply cannot trust Grace. First time you play thru you have no idea what is going to happen. You have to judge things from the context up to that point (and NOT as after a replay when you will already know what WILL happen from your "decisions", for those obscured different endings). YOU BELIEVE you are Eleanor's Daddy, coming to SAVE HER, and NOTHING will YOU allow to stop YOU ''': * You are offered NO other option - Kill Grace with one blow, or Leave her alive to subsequently do whatever she wants. * No option of taking Grace hostage after taking the Key, to get safely to the Train. * No Grace taking her secret exit chute (YOU '''KNOW SHE WOULD HAVE ONE), leaving the key behind for you. * Similarly, YOU are supposed to believe that after years of bitterness and her revenge-desiring bile boiling inside, Grace suddenly changes sides AND starts helping YOU. That is after : "Tin Daddy don't change", "Gonna get the Monster that took my Eleanor" ... * No possibility she could abuse your mercy and call all the rest of her Splicer horde down upon you -- and simultaneously attack with those 2 security Bots (Those ones she gave you ?? - But somehow didn't bother to use to protect herself ?) You cannot take the risk. * Why does Grace just hand you the Key ? (Remember, even at that point she assumes you are the 'Evil Baby Stealing Monster". (Why not a Nice fake Key that sets off a trap explosive? Nah not enuf time ...) * No flushing the Security Key down the nearest toilet to keep it away from you to save 'Her baby Eleanor' -- Forcing YOU to have to find an alternate way to get that train going...) * No lock on a heavy security door you would HAVE to batter your way thru to get to Grace and THE KEY (Remember Grace lives amongst Splicers who, being generally mental, can tend to become homicidal crazies at odd times -- that while there are PLENTY of other doors around you can't seem able to open/bash thru). The problem with these games is they are so heavily choreographed and linear (and expensive enough even just to get that, let alone long alternate paths with different outcomes). Replaying the game offered little difference -- you know what is going to happen every time. --- --- --- Tin Daddy Bad : ' Grace Holloway apparently 'don't like Tin Daddies' and they are seen frequently are under attack in her 'area' in Paupers_Drop. You would think that Sofia Lamb would NOT want the Big Daddies and Little Sisters interfered with in ALL the areas of her collectivist fiefdom -- to protect her ADAM production/recovery for her 'Big' Project. 'The Rapture Family' Splicers keep dying/killing themselves to make the Little Sisters blood drinking act worth the bother. (Lamb went to all that trouble to bring in new Little Sisters from the Surface). With fewer Daddies and Lil Sisters reporting in (they do when still alive get back to Persephone somehow ...), Sofia might have been wondering which of her other sycophants she could get to run Paupers Drop (and traitor Grace just one more corpse to dump into the Abyss). Grace was likely the one who 'fingered' Delta and led Lamb to him and Eleanor, and stood by while Lamb ordered/forced Delta to commit suicide. But then Grace stood by while countless members of the 'Rapture Family' were coerced into 'sacrificing' themselves for Lamb's grand project. Overlooking 'non-believers' being murdered and new Little Sisters being kidnapped and converted (recall her ravings about 'baby Eleanor'), Grace seems to have 'stood by' for alot of things. --- --- --- '''Going Thru Paupers Drop Again (Starving Artists...) : ' I still haven't figured out why someone like Grace would come to Rapture. She says how bad it is when times get hard (for everyone), blames her situation on alleged racism, yet is surprised that noone has money anymore to pay for her performances. Again, I wonder why any accomplished artist would even come to Rapture with its limited audiences, UNLESS they were a failure on the Surface or someone's Sycophant. Freedom for Artists generally was the case in the Western World (on the Surface) - apart from motive of some escaping from a police state. Some might escape from a criminal record (obscenity laws did still exist), OR a career-ruining scandal, or somesuch. And as far as making money, WHAT might be considered garbage on the Surface would likely be considered garbage in Rapture. Still, there might be sufficient 'rich people' for some art critics to work their flim-flam on to sell them garbage. --- --- --- '''SO, Grace Holloway is Rendered Penniless ?? Grace Holloway : "That's it -- we have to close down the Limbo. Bomb goes off in that fancy place uptown, and everybody panics... pulls their money out of the banks... a whole city tuggin' on the same dollar_bill. So the banks fold, and maybe one in ten got their savings out... who's going to come hear me nightingalin' about how broke they are? How am I going to provide for little Eleanor?" This is talking about the Kashmir incident in 1959 isn't it ??? It Sounds like she was still working upto that point in time. The 'Blackballed' thing THEN is sometime else ?? AT that point she does NOT sound 'blackballed' by Ryan to me. (Blackballed usually means : To block from employment/working for having sympathies most employer(s) would NOT want representing/associated with their business - against the common Sympathies of the Majority). So possibly was it Poorer times from a previous Economic Crisis (like in 1952) here being talked about? But Grace seems to have survived that. She says people treated her like dirt? (Some kind of allegation of racism?) AND Why would any performer with talent actually go to Rapture, with it having so small a potential audience? Possibly Grace just didn't think she got the acclaim she thought she was due (a common belief of egotistical performers) - used that as her reason she left the Surface ??? Doesn't Sander Cohen himeself at one point blame Ryan when : "The Audiences don't ever come", except he says this is in the middle of the Civil War/Chaos (when people fear to even go out to get food)? How soon did Grace arrive (what state was it in the Surface World)? (It WOULD BE at least by early/mid-50s, with the Eleanor involvement mentioned in-game). That was Post-WW2 boom-times ... BUT she couldn't make it up there THEN ?? Not sure what kind of vetting Ryan's people did, as Grace sounds like someone who plainly has sympathies for 'Parasitism' (( '' But then we wouldn't have much of a dystopic story if there weren't any people CONTRARY to Rapture's Philosophy '' )). Singing songs against Ryan, but not against Atlas ... WHEN Atlas's terrorists were the ones who caused the Last (1959) 'Crash' which with finality shutdown her workplace (( '' But then Grace probably thought : "Those Fatcats in the Kashmir probably 'deserved it' ..." But then, Artist types aren't always known for their 'Good Sense' '' )). --- --- --- Grace Blackballed ?? Apparently for handing out seditious pamphlets and singing against Andrew Ryan in the middle of the Civil War ?? But then what places were/could-be still open during the Civil War? How can she not realize this except as an excuse ? Atlas's Splicers are murdering people in the streets, disrupting Rapture's economy, possibly threatening even the sustenance of the population --- and Grace is helping that side ?? War changes things. There is Tightened Security, Rationing, clamping down on Free Speech supporting the Enemy ... Most of the people in Rapture came out of WW2, when such measures were routine if not supported by the majority as necessary. Freedom is one thing. Freedom to assist the ENEMY murder/destroy your (or others) World is a whole another thing. --- --- --- ' How did Grace Maintain Control ('Governor' of Paupers Drop...) ? ' : Splicers might not be the most rational of people (or we just seem to have been exposed to low-rational end of the bell-curve?). Maybe the smart ones largely hid when we were rampaging about. Anyway, how would Grace maintain control of them for Sofia Lamb ? Carrot and Stick ? Bribing/extorting with ADAM/food or thuggery/murder to convince all the inhabitants to 'play nice'? Of course having the 'powers to convince' is useful to any leader, though to what extent it works with Splicers is debatable. Threats to miscreants that Sofia Lamb will 'take care of them' might be the biggest controlling factor. --- --- --- Audio Diary : "Field_Trial" ''' : King of the Jungle ? Leo Hartwig (Paupers Drop) : "Survival of the fittest. That's the rule in the Drop, the only rule. These numbskulls can't see the potential in leftover traces of Sports Boost, Armored Shell, the tonics for increasing muscle mass and density... but I see the king of the jungle. First field trial of my new formula. Subject: Hartwig, Leo. Alright... Here goes... Ughh... urghh... rrrrrrrrRRRRRAAAGHHH! " Leo Hartwig (a Brute Splicer in-game) seems to be one of Grace Holloway/Sofia Lamb's enforcers. Enforcer ?? Big happy families don't really need 'enforcers' do they ?? (Remember, 'Collectivist Regimes' are always 'Happy' by declaration.) --- --- --- '''Still Alive ? Grace might still be in Pauper's Drop by the time of MMORPG - that is if after Lamb's demise she really had any influence other than handing out goodies that Lamb provided (the supply of which now either dried up or someone else has control of and likely would dispense with Grace Holloway's services). Where the food comes from - would require connecting/cooperating with other remaining minions of Lamb's little fiefdom to continue the flow of supplies. Apparently, if the 'evil' Jack decided to 'let her have it', then he only 'winged her'...... --- --- --- Killing Grace ... : I recently (in a BS2 repeat playthru) paid Grace a visit (after having to listen to her bile yet again), and using the cheats (ghost/fly), and then putting some Trap Rivets in her little spider-hole before triggering the confrontation scene. SO I went back to Normal-Mode outside to approach via the original sequence (push hidden button/wipe the porthole), and heard a Trap Rivet fire, but her little 'Evil Tin Daddy' monologue continued as normal and on entry I could whack her repeatedly with little effect (her programmed scripting probably flagged as already dead, so wouldn't trigger her falling down 'death' animation). After taking the key and getting Sinclair's "killed her" message (while she was still standing there) I left and the the game went on following the normal sequence of her being dead (Sofia's blatherings, etc...). Not really a bug, as its not a situation that would happen in the normally played game. But that's what happens when you have choreographed scenes that normally don't allow you to do anything else (cuz it breaks the limited script's logic otherwise). Generalized adaptive/versatile object behavior takes several hundred times as much scripting logic - which is why games mostly DONT do it that way (It is expensive ($$$), and ALOT more work/effort/expertise to Test, to make it work correctly). As for killing Grace, it might have been interesting(creative/imaginitive), that if you let her live, she goes on (as you try to leave the Sinclair Deluxe) to order all her followers (like ~30) to Zerg Rush you and to kill you (if you don't run like heck for the Train). That teaches you that making 'moral choices' about people you really DON'T know/understand can lead to your ruin/destruction (and worse - YOUR Failure to save Precious Eleanor). It was rather convenient for Grace to suddenly change after ALL her years of obsession and hatred, AND her seeing/being part of what evils Sofia Lamb had done (and not just standing by, but helping). --- --- --- Grace, Just Another Tool ... : Loading Screen Quote : Grace Holloway : "My folks lived in the St. Louis Hooverville in '32... and the Drop is worse by a mile. But Doctor Lamb cares. We're still people to her." - Grace Holloway I guess Grace never read Sofia's book then, or listened to her dehumanization rantings ... (or 'Aunty' only heard what she wanted to hear). The expression "Borg" didn't exist yet (that is what Sofia had planned for Mankind). Maybe Sofia wasn't so vocal about the "sacrifice" part when she was getting started. BUT Grace could hardly miss it once Sofia took over that section of the City. Ditto for the fate of 'Unbelievers'. Sofia Lamb treated her own daughter as a lab animal. Is that really the kind of person you want defining 'how the human race should exist' ??? Grace obviously wasn't watching what happened to Eleanor after Sofia took her back from being a Little Sister. I wonder what she would have made of Sofia smothering Eleanor. "That evil woman tried to smother my baby Eleanor, so I clubbed her til she wasn't movin no more." --- --- --- Grace's Apartment - What A Ratty Old Piano : Obviously a reused game Asset (also seen in Mermaid Lounge in Sirens Alley ?), instead of gamemakers modifying it (keys mainly) to be in useable condition. She still has the microphone there in the room, and most of the other furniture is in quite good condition. So why (being a performer, and Lamb's 'Useful Idiot in Charge' of Paupers Drop) couldn't Grace manage to get a good piano? Or why is THAT one wrecked when the other furniture is OK ? (Did she wreck it in a Splicer-rage those years ago when Eleanor's Delta belted her in the mouth, and she couldn't sing any more (or for Lamb's propaganda, at least for a while, since she IS heard later) or for losing Eleanor. As a musical performer you would think she would want to have a working one there to have someone to play accompaniment to her singing (if she didn't herself). Minor Detail, but the MMORPG would pay more attention to 'minor' details. Just how many piano tuners would Rapture have anyway>? --- --- --- Grace Hollaway - Sofia Lamb's Tool : Grace was an "aider and abettor" to the atrocities that Sofia Lamb carried out. Was Grace willfully blind to the fact that there are new Little Sisters in Rapture (especially after her loud lamenting Eleanor's fate)? More little children turned into Little Ghouls - or do those not really count because they weren't HER Eleanor ? Can Grace not see Splicers (or at least humans) being talked into or forced to 'offer themselves' to 'sacrifice' and death to achieve Lamb's 'First Utopian' delusion ?? Eight years of this? Can she not have heard all of 'Father Wales' cultist rantings about 'the Lamb' etc... Shouldn't Grace have had a plot to "do in" Sofia because of what she was doing to 'her baby Eleanor' ? Has Grace closed her eyes to all the 'Unbeliever' corpses on display in Lambs kingdom ?? - obviously been murdered BY the Family. Despite that Sofia Lamb long ago welcomed ALL to her 'Family' and now changed it so horribly?? Did Grace NOT see the lies, or she just didn't WANT to see them? If she really wanted to save Eleanor from this 'Monster', shouldn't she have flushed that control key down her private toilet (or whatever other way she could have done, to thwart Delta) ?? Willfully ignorant ?? That's no defense. She sure whined alot abot 'injustices' yet herself turned out to pe the perpetrator of worse things. Makes you wonder how one-sided/distorted so many other things might be when you try to ACTUALLY 'Judge the situation' based largely on Grace's (and all the others) Audio-Diaries and Radio-Messages. - A Big Deal was made of Ryan's 'Trophy Wall', but not then much of those 'Unbelievers' left on public display under the Lamb Regime ?? The people on Ryan's wall tried to murder him, and he took it personal. Why wasn't Sofia Lamb there on that wall or Fontaine or possibly many others IF he was really so Vindictive/Tyrannical ?? Apparently, he ACTUALLY wasn't. --- --- --- --- --- . .